Impact Stories
January 16, 2025 – Future of Work

Michael Horn: Want workers who are engaged and stay? Talk to them

Michael Horn: Want workers who are engaged and stay? Talk to them
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Michael Horn strives to create a world where every person can fulfill their potential and live a life of purpose. He is co-founder of, and distinguished fellow at, the Clayton Christensen Institute for Disruptive Innovation, a think tank that helps policymakers, entrepreneurs, and leaders radically improve entire industries through research and community empowerment. In addition to hosting several podcasts, Horn teaches at Harvard University’s Graduate School of Education and is the author of several books, including the recently released Job Moves. We sat down with Horn to discuss Job Moves and how both employees and employers can benefit from conversations about skills development and career advancement.

CKF: Before we get into what Job Moves is, tell our readers about your research with co-authors Ethan Bernstein and Bob Moesta.

Horn: Sure. We interviewed more than 1,000 people who recently had switched jobs. That was our only criteria. They had to have switched — they couldn’t just be thinking about making a switch. This group included everyone from fast food line managers and firefighters to CEOs and entrepreneurs. Some were just starting their careers, others nearing the end. That allowed us to identify the root causes that lead people to quit their jobs.

From that, we then developed a process to help other individuals switch jobs in a way that would best facilitate their interests. We coached them using that system — and made improvements to the process over several cohorts.

One of the most interesting things we found, and something that ran counter to our hypothesis, was that workers’ reasons for wanting to leave a job were remarkably similar, no matter their age or job title. We isolated about 30 reasons.

CKF: Interesting. Based on those 30 reasons, can you make a general statement about what is it people want from work?

Horn: They’re looking for progress, but how they define that isn’t synonymous with how companies think of that term. A couple of generations ago, hiring was a one way street. People expected to be hired, not do the hiring of their employer. They also expected to come into a company at an entry level and have their employer outline a path toward advancement. That’s why people rarely moved employers. Embedded in that mindset was the idea that your job was separate from the rest of your life. That idea has been disrupted over the last 40 years. More people are switching jobs and, perhaps because they spend so much time at work, expect their job to be more aligned to their self-interest and need for meaning.

But there’s also something else that’s different about today’s workers, and that is that they’re living in a world where they’re being told their skills are depreciating faster than ever. Think about that. People are constantly being reminded their skills are going to be out of date — quickly. It’s no wonder they’re eager to keep moving, keep advancing.

CKF: Interesting. Modern workers often are criticized for leaving a job too soon, but that could be a function of job anxiety. Is what you’re describing connected to all the surveys we see about job dissatisfaction?

Horn: Not exactly. The main reason I think many workers are frustrated is because they’re in jobs that don’t align with who they believe they are. They’re not expending their energy on work that excites them. There’s also deep misalignment in the skills and experience they bring to the table.

CKF: Got it. Now let’s get into what the book is. Organizational psychologist Adam Grant said Job Moves is “the ultimate guide to … advancing in your career.” That’s an endorsement! What will readers learn, and how is Job Moves different than other books about career development?

Horn: I’ll start with the second question. Many career books say they help people get a “dream” job. But no job is a dream, perfect. Our book tries to help people articulate what they want in a job and to determine what tradeoffs they’re willing to make for it.

More specifically, the first part of the book will help people make progress in their careers and lives. The big idea Bob, Ethan, and I challenge is the notion that it’s only the employer doing the hiring. That’s true, but individuals today are subconsciously coming to the workforce expecting to hire their employers. They want to choose what type of company they work for, and the type of work they do. That sense of agency also brings up a question: what does progress mean for each individual? We help readers answer that question in the first three-quarters of the book.

The latter part explores how mentors, managers, and organizations can better support individuals on their career journey. Through our research we found people have a really hard time defining what their purpose is—what progress looks like for them now. It takes a lot of digging and it starts by asking what energizes them and what personal assets do they want to maintain and develop to start to understand their priorities. The book, along with our assessment at JobMoves.com, helps workers define what they mean by purpose and it gives managers and mentors tools to help workers.

CKF: Let’s dig deeper there. How can HR professionals and even CEOs benefit from Job Moves?

Horn: I think it comes down to this: anyone in those positions should know the root causes of why people quit. If managers and CEOs want to create organizations where people are engaged, and if they want to retain them, they need to understand how to have conversations about what people want out of work.

CKF: You refer to one company, IDR Solutions, where employees are encouraged to talk openly about why they may leave their job. That seems like a scary conversation for employers, but you found it worked. Why?

Horn: To start, I want to point out that among those we coached who were thinking about leaving their jobs, something like 53 percent stayed with their current employer. That’s because, through dialogue, they became more articulate about what they wanted. They could reframe their current role, tell their managers what they wanted, and their employers could shift as a result. Without the coaching and openness on the part of employers, the frustration would have continued. IDR Solutions is doing this, and retention and engagement there is high.

CKF: That’s a pretty great number. By engaging with workers, there’s actually more than half a chance they’ll end up staying even if they’ve been sending out resumes. That brings us to something else. You interviewed dozens of HR professionals, asking what they’d learned and would do differently. What were your main takeaways?

Horn: That employers should interview people on the way in, not the way out. Exit interviews are too late. Instead, managers should dig deep after someone is hired. Ask why they left their previous job and what they want from this new one. We want employers to find out why a particular worker decided to work at their organization because that’s going to help that employer sustain worker engagement. These conversations also can help employers determine how to approach work hours, performance expectations, and those sorts of issues.

CKF: People are used to the annual review. How often should employers have these open conversations?

Horn: It’s really going to depend on the rhythm of the business, but my sense is probably every month, or quarterly.

CKF: Again, that can be scary for employers. In fact, let’s talk about the title of the book: Job Moves. That gets right to employers’ fears — that if they unlock potential by offering employees a chance to build new skills, people will leave. Tell us why investing in people results in loyalty, not turnover.

Horn: I like a play-off how Richard Branson has framed this dilemma. So, you’re afraid people will leave if you offer them opportunities to grow? What happens if you don’t train them and they stay? It’s a lot worse. Plus, people don’t live in the cocoon. They can see what’s happening outside your four walls. Dissatisfaction isn’t created because you asked people how they’re doing, and what they want to be doing. It’s created because there’s tension already. Having the conversation just acknowledges what is true and uncovers where there is disengagement and dissatisfaction. And we found, more often than not, these conversations offer the opportunity to find a way forward and keep good employees.

The interview was edited for length and clarity.